This is me and my quiz team. And Diana (a quiz master). My brother is the tall guy. Yeah, the tall guy in the front. ;-) jk jk. Naw, that's Josh. He comes out of no where.
First off, he is awake. I saw him a few moments ago, and believe me, he was awake. Secondly, what he "said" was actually being quoted off of a website which was questions and answers about TNIV. Not his actual view on the subject of weather it is right or not to change the Bible.
QUOTE MATTHEW: "OK, here's my 2 cents worth.
What is the most important thing ever? 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,
This fact is woven so deeply in to Scripture that even intentional inaccuracies cannot remove it (NWT case in point). However, you're not going to find this kind of flaw in any Bible you will find for sale from legitimate sources. Each one was translated by a team of scholars whose goal in life is to serve God with their entire being. Saying they are distorting Scripture is spitting in the face of what could be their life's work.
Back on subject, the minor differences between translations almost don't matter to a new Christian, as they are starting from knowing nothing. Readability is the key here.
As a person matures in Christ, the differences start to matter a little more. But still, I don't think you will find any major doctrinal differences between any legitimate translations.
Certainly, each person can and should choose which translation they read. But I don't think you can go wrong with any Bible you like in the Christian Book Store today.
At the same time, differences are fascinating. You can use http://scripturememorychallenge.org's own verse comparison tool to check this kind of thing out easily."
Quote AJ: "Changing the Bible to make it more politically correct is really, really dangerous."
I think both of you have really good points. But you were asking for my thoughts on the subject, so I'll try to give them to you. I think we in America have plenty of Bibles and plenty of translations. I think that we have readable tranlsations and some which are difficult to comprehend for the normal American (aka KJV). The way God designed Christianity was for a comunity to be involved in the decipleship of the believers. Those further along in their faith would teach the newer ones. They met together in houses to fellowship, they grew together. Back then, they were living in the culture the NT was written to. They understood their culture. As a result, the Scriptures were not confusing to them. Our American calture is different from theirs. (in case you hadn't noticed) BUT if the church continues in the way it was designed, then new believers would be able to understand that "man" refers to both genders.
So, my thought. We have plenty of translations which are easy to read. And if the church does its job right, then making the Bible "gender accurate" or whatever, is not nessessary.
However, my thoughts on the subject do not end there. Bible Translators have come across a delema over and over and over again. When translating the Bible, which is more important, accuracy or understandablity? South America tribes... people who have never seen snow, how do you translate "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow;". What will the people reading it think? Snow. What is snow? They have never seen a gentle blanket of snow on the earth, the purity of it, how white it is, how fresh, how lovely. They have not even seen a picture of it. They have never tasted snow. They have never felt it melt in their hands. So what do you do? Do you translate accuratly and leave them in the dark? Or do you replace "snow" with something that they can grasp?
I honestly cannot imagine God desiring for people to not beable to comprehend His Word. His taking on human form to walk among us is enough to make me believe that. We have the Spirit of God in us, and if we were given the task to translate the Bible, then I would hope and pray that the Holy Spirit who came upon the first authors would also come on us and give us wisdom.
Quote AJ: "I’m not saying different translations are bad, I’m just saying that changing the Bible to make it into what you want it to be (like TNIV) is bad."
Changing the Bible to make it what you, selfishly, want to be is definietly bad. I would most certainly agree with you on that point. Changing the Bible to make it what you want it to be, like Missionaries changing the word "snow" to something that the tribal people can understand, its what they want it to be... because they want others to be able to understand it. I would have to say that I think that's where the heart of the TNIV translators really is. Although I personally am not overjoyed about it (yes, I cringed when I read Drew's comparison of those verses), I think that the heart is what matters.
Quote AJ: "This dude his got his faith DOWN!! Talk about kicking butt and taking names!! Man he’s good."
hahaha. And not only that, he can whip your butt in quizzing too. Of course, that would be easy to accomplish with you. *evil grin*
It looks pretty good. One thing about sin, is even if it is not sin in your own heart to do something, if it causes someone else to stumble then its wrong for you to do it. It is also sin to do something which is not sin to you, but your leaders or parents do not approve of it, because God has told you to respect your authority. The exception to that rule is if God Himself said to do something and they are contridicting Him, like if your leaders/parents told you not to follow God. Then you have permission to dissobey them, but you still have to honor them.
Just thought I'd add that. Although I'm pretty positive that you already know that.
The URL is missing a bit. If you leave out the numbers bit it's fine though. And btw...
Quote: " Comment moderation has been enabled. All comments must be approved by the blog author."
Reason? No reason? Fun? Spam? Religiously sensative comments? And where are you getting all this stuff about the TNIV? And what does that stand for? HELP!!! I'M LOST!!
Sorry Spencer. I noticed the URL wasn't working so I was going to delete the comment so I could correct it... but it wouldn't let me delete the comment. Therefore I tried to put it so I could moderate the comments so I could delete them. That also didn't work. Now I'm going to attempt to fix it so it doesn't freaking make me have to moderate the comments before they are posted. :-P Today is so not my day for blogging.
Ok... YAY! I got it disabled. Now you'll have to help me figure out how to delete comments.
Ok, the movie I want y'all to see is the quizzing one, which is on my Xanga page. http://xanga.com/thedayisalmosthere its the first movie.
2ndly, to get Spencer back in on what's going on. All those quotes are coming from the SMC forum, Insights, battle of the Bibles, 2nd page. (and maybe this time the URL will work) http://scripturememorychallenge.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=70&start=15
Matthew, hmmmm... I did not catch that Drew was quoting something. Tahnks for pointing it out.
Oh yeah! I forgot... I'm trying to get Spencer back in on what's going on.
TNIV stands for Today's New International Bible. Apparently TNIV is translating stuff like "son" as "children" and "father" as "parents".
Any more questions, I'll be glad to force AJ to answer them for you. ;-) Or Matthew if he gets a jump at it. (AJ, btw, Matthew is my brother, even though many people think he's my boyfrined and on occasion people have thought that we were married. He's not quite that lucky... he's just my brother)
Quote: “was actually being quoted off of a website which was questions and answers about TNIV. Not his actual view on the subject of weather it is right or not to change the Bible.”
Well it sure sounded like he believed in it! He should be more specific. Thanks for clearing things up M.B.
Quote: “This fact is woven so deeply in to Scripture that even intentional inaccuracies cannot remove it”
Whoa. I was just quoting Bible! If as far as I know Revelation 22:18-19 doesn’t have a footnote saying, “This fact is woven so deeply in to Scripture that even intentional inaccuracies cannot remove it”. So go right ahead and say that the scripture quote is irrelevant if you want. But I believe what it says.
Quote: “Saying they are distorting Scripture is spitting in the face of what could be their life's work.”
Hey Maybe, remember what I said about using people’s words against them? You’re about to see a prime example!
To Matthew: Have you every heard of Charles Darwin? Evolution? Origin of the Species? Because Charles’ “life’s work” was creating his own religion, Evolution. If a man spends his whole life “distorting scripture” then the Bible says a lot more is going to happen to him then a “spitting in the face”. So the only way to defend your last comment is to call the Bible a liar! And if your not going to do that, then just back down and take the Bible at it’s word.
Quote: “Readability is the key here.”
Ha ha. You can’t be serious! Matthew 2:17 says, “And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.” Now what if the Bible was changed to say, “This is my child, whom I love; with it I am well pleased. Do you see the problem? Genesis 2:15 says, “The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it.” What if it was changed to “The Lord God took the person and put it in the Garden. Genesis 1:27 says, “So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. Once again what if it was changed to say, “So God created people in his own image, in the image of God he created them; person and person he created them.
Quote: “Our American culture is different from theirs. (in case you hadn't noticed)”
I’ve read and am doing a study on a book called Wild at Heart. Throughout the book it talks about the world trying to make everything feminist. From school systems to jobs, the world is afraid of real men. They say that boys should be more like girls and men should be more passive. The changing of the Bible in the TNIV is just one of the many bad attempts to change Man into Person.
Quote: “honestly cannot imagine God desiring for people to not be able to comprehend His Word.”
But changing “snow” to another word so that they can understand it is a far cry from changing all man and woman into people or persons so that it fits “American culture”.
Quote: “hahaha. And not only that, he can whip your butt in quizzing too. Of course, that would be easy to accomplish with you. *evil grin*”
That’s Ok. You quizzers can argue about “who knows the most scripture” all you want, (evil grin) I’ll spend my time preparing to send the bad to jail and give the evil the death sentence. And yes, I know you’re evil.
Quote: “Why are you writing the paper on dancing anyway?”
There are people who don’t believe what I believe, when I get the chance to convince them I will, If I get the chance to give them my paper I will. But it is also preparation for me to explain what I think about certain topics and YES ms. Quizzer, a chance to get to know the scriptures that support my opinion better. And now that I’ve thought of it and written about it! I believe my next paper will be on NTIV. Yeah! Yet another argument ending, earth changing paper.
Quote: “if it causes someone else to stumble then its wrong for you to do it.”
I do not get into a discussion unprepared. I have already thought of this and knew what I was going to say in such a case, as is my job as Debater. So here it is! Although doing something might cause someone else to stumble, it is not ALWAYS your fault nor can you be held responsible for someone else’s actions. Sometimes people do things carelessly and it causes others to stumble, but sometimes the person hasn’t done anything except be born with good looks, and those type cannot be held responsible for someone else’s thoughts. I would not purposefully cause someone to “stumble” (no pun intended) with my dancing, but I can’t be held responsible if someone takes it the wrong way. (That last sentence might have sounded like a reference to the “good looks” but it wasn’t, I’m not that cocky!)
Quote: “Just thought I'd add that. Although I'm pretty positive that you already know that.”
Spiritually or physically? And I’ve got to tell you a funny story. So I’m sitting here writing on the Microsoft Word about TNIV and my dad walks in, he asks if I’m writing a thesis. I say no, I’m discussing Bible translations with Mary Beth. He asks who Mary Beth is and I try to explain how she knows the Hoovers and she’s a friend of Spencer’s. So he says, “Are Spencer and her an issue?” and I’m like so stunned that all I can manage to say is, “no”. But when it finally settled in I cracked up laughing! Thought you’d enjoy that, tell Lizz I said, “Keep it real”. I hope Matthew doesn’t jump to too many conclusions about me. And have a great day!
Quote: "I hope Matthew doesn’t jump to too many conclusions about me."
He can't. He's already heard too much about how awesome you are, and besides. You're one of my friends. Apparently basically all my friends are really cool.
And to answer your question, Matthew was born 2 years before I was, and shock of all shock, by the exact same people as I was!
And now I must think about what you have said. In my opinion, I agree with you about "snow" and changing "man" to "person" being different. All living creation knows the difference between male and female. And I guess I have some research to do...
Here's something you probably will notice about me. I hate putting people down or their work. (although with you and a few other people I torment, nothing is taken seriously and any insults are not given seriously) I will stick up for the underdog. Especially if I don't know very much about what is going on. If I know enough I may form an opinion. On this particular topic, I am not pleased with the TNIV. (times the "not pleased" by a high number) However, I also don't know all the facts.
So I guess I'll try to do some research since its important to you, and in the meantime... I'll let Matthew know you responded to what he said.
Quote AJ: "Ha ha. You can’t be serious! Matthew 2:17 says, “And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.” Now what if the Bible was changed to say, “This is my child, whom I love; with it I am well pleased. Do you see the problem?"
Matthew 3:17 "And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."
Guess what version that is.
I'm going to guess that you said NIV. In which case, you're correct. But if you wanted to shock me and guess TNIV, I'd have to say that you are also correct. This is copied word for word out of the TNIV. And I compared it to NIV. They are the same. Exactly.
Quote AJ: "Genesis 2:15 says, “The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it.” What if it was changed to “The Lord God took the person and put it in the Garden."
Genesis 2:15 "The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it."
Again. I copied this out of the TNIV Bible. Quoted the exact same way as in NIV.
Quote: "Genesis 1:27 says, “So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. Once again what if it was changed to say, “So God created people in his own image, in the image of God he created them; person and person he created them."
Genesis 1:27 "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them." NIV
"So God created human beings in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them." TNIV
Finally, one which is different. The passage truly is talking about human beings when it says "man". In the other passages "man" was obviously being referred to as "man". God made man and put him in the garden to work. He made woman as a helper. To someone who is not used to the Christian lingo... what are they going to think when they read that last passage?
"Okay... God made man in His image... male and female. How do you get a man who is female? I guess God made a mistake... which means that some men are really women inside, and some women are really men inside. So changing genders is fine!"
I think you are thinking that the TNIV is changing everything to make it so the genders are not mentioned. The passage we read fron Hebrews was scary "children" and "parents" SHEESH WHAT ARE THEY THINKING????? But I just looked it up in the TNIV and the website Drew was quoting had it wrong!
"Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children. For what children are not disciplined by their father?"
Yes, "son" and "children" are different. But wouldn't they all be disciplined by the parent who adminster's discipline? I don't know about your family... but in my family Dad didn't just discipline the boys. He disciplined all the kids.
AJ, what are we discussing? Weather or not TNIV is in the wrong? Or if it is wrong to make the genders equal?
Again, the "snow" thing. From what little I've seen out of the actual TNIV, it is applying the same logic, same motive, same theory. If you are going to say that its wrong to translate so that people who are reading can understand it, then why are you reading the Bible in English? Every single translation is changed. KJV had stuff added to it and it was worded in a way that the people of that day could understand. TNIV is being translated, quite closely to the NIV, only when its talking about both sexes it uses "people" or "children" or some other term which is easy to grasp.
Quote: "The changing of the Bible in the TNIV is just one of the many bad attempts to change Man into Person."
Is it? As you are researching, I'd suggest that you use the TNIV and compare it to whatever version you want. And to save you some trouble and money... there is a website online which has tons of different versions of the Bible. the link is http://biblegateway.com
On the left their is a colum thingy, the 2nd one down (right under "Home") is "Pasage Lookup" In the middle of the screen there are a few boxes. The first one, under "Enter Passage(s)" you can enter a passage (or click the link benieth it "lookup multiple passages" and look up a couple passages) then there is a bar under "select version(s)" here you click a bar and pick a version you want to use. You can have up to 5 versions. Once you're done you can hit "Lookup Passage"
you can compare the passages side by side if you like, or read one and scrool down to see the other.
I also use Biblegateway to look up words, and I use the main screen for that and enter what I'm thinking of, such as "man" which has 2723 Results in NIV.
She asked if you thought she was being fake. (rather jokingly I might add... I think anyway)
Quote: "I’ll spend my time preparing to send the bad to jail and give the evil the death sentence. And yes, I know you’re evil."
Awwwww, come on AJ. Just because I have better looks, am smarter, more creative, and also smell better, doesn't mean you have to hold such a grudge. I don't think that you can really thorw someone to jail for those standards.
Hmmm... a thought, some people can't help that they're good looking (like me ;-) hehe) but some... er... a whole lot actually, show it off, and that causes others to stumble. Of course, some people are going to sin no matter what other people do. We do have some responsibilty, and like I said, if the people in authority over us say "no", even if we thank God for it, we must show respect and submit to them because "there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities which exist have been established by God to do us good." (Romans something I believe)
ok.. Dad said hi to Spencer and asked if AJ was "there". I answered "no" because, to my knowledge, neither of you are on the internet right now. (the time I am posting this, not the time you are reading it, in which case you obviously are on the internet and in which case my dad says "hi")
I was actually commenting on a guy named Griffin's Xanga. He thought he was monopolizing my Xanga and I said that I had a guy yesterday leave 4 pgs worth of comments on my blogspot. Compared to his 1 page worth of comments... he has a way to go. ;-)
Today must not be my day. To start it off... AJ brought it to my attention (and Spencers) that his dad asked if we were an "issue" why you'd be having issues with us AJ, I don't know. But Spencer has promised me that he will pay for your tharipist bills if you need counseling because of my tramatizing you.
After that I thought I was doing fine. Then I went to youthgroup and told a girlfriend of mine I wanted to introduce her to a friend (who I was stunned to see there because even though he has moved to Toccoa I see him once a month at quiz meets), and I pointed him out to her, she asked in the sweetest way possible, "is he a nice boy?" (aka, do you like him?) I was rather taken aback and said, "ummm... no. He's a friend from quizzing, he got first place at Internationals last year and I went to internationals twice with him" and then I was able to introduce them.
And then I turn around and I see Flirt Jonathan. (yeah, ok. So I'm harsh on people who flirt with people they bearly know, especially if that person is me. Generally they are classified as "stupid flirts" and are to be avoidied)
Then I am FINALLY safe and I come home and a friend from quizzing said on my xanga, "I think somewhere in there it was implied that John is a stud, but even if it wasn't, he is, so I'll be sure to tell him so...again" And all I did was insult him... the guy who said that... Griffin... yeah.
Ok. Today has been really weird. And I'm only saying all that because... well... its laughable and really weird. Really. Normally my life isn't so weird. Especially not in that aspect.
I'm not sure if I'm taking this a little too seriously, but in discussion I try to understand what the other guy is really saying before I respond. If you have other views, I'll stay out of this one.
In response to your post:
Quote me: “Saying they are distorting Scripture is spitting in the face of what could be their life's work.”
Quote AJ: To Matthew: Have you every heard of Charles Darwin? Evolution? Origin of the Species? Because Charles’ “life’s work” was creating his own religion, Evolution. If a man spends his whole life “distorting scripture” then the Bible says a lot more is going to happen to him then a “spitting in the face”. So the only way to defend your last comment is to call the Bible a liar! And if your not going to do that, then just back down and take the Bible at it’s word.
I've heard that a text without a context is a pretext.
If you look at just that one sentence from my post it doesn't make any sense. However, if you read the entire paragraph you will see something very interesting:
Each one was translated by a team of scholars whose goal in life is to serve God with their entire being. Saying they are distorting Scripture is spitting in the face of what could be their life's work.
Quote: “To someone who is not used to the Christian lingo... what are they going to think when they read that last passage?”
Well if they really want to understand the Bible they will ask someone who knows what it means. And if they go off like your example “and some women are really men inside. So changing genders is fine!" then they obviously don’t want to be Christians enough to understand it.
Quote: “I don't know about your family... but in my family Dad didn't just discipline the boys. He disciplined all the kids.”
But the thing is that the Bible didn’t do a study on our “family” behaviors and then write it accordingly. It was written the way it was written, and once again I will say that changing the Bible to fit present actions is wrong.
Quote: “AJ, what are we discussing? Whether or not TNIV is in the wrong?
I think that’s wrong. If you had to say whether it was Right of Wrong which would you choose?
Quote: “Or if it is wrong to make the genders equal?”
I think that’s wrong. If you had to say whether it was Right of Wrong which would you choose?
So my answer’s both.
Quote: “only when its talking about both sexes it uses "people" or "children" or some other term which is easy to grasp.”
I’ve already explained that the changing of the “sexes” in the Bible is what is worrying me, that and the fact that it is changing the Bible.
Quote: “which is easy to grasp”
“The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Easier does not equal better.
Quote: “As you are researching, I'd suggest that you use the TNIV and compare it to whatever version you want.”
Thank you for the website, but keep in mind I am researching it to prove it to others, not to reassure myself.
Quote: "Well if they really want to understand the Bible they will ask someone who knows what it means. And if they go off like your example “and some women are really men inside. So changing genders is fine!" then they obviously don’t want to be Christians enough to understand it."
Very good point. I was exaggerating on that. However, if someone wished to argue that changing their gender was alright, then they could use that.
Quote: "It was written the way it was written, and once again I will say that changing the Bible to fit present actions is wrong."
You are grouping something together... and I am dividing them. Since you asked my opinion on the subject, I shall give it to you.
On second thought... I think I'll think about it some more. I cannot put words to what I really think right now.
Quote: "I’ve already explained that the changing of the “sexes” in the Bible is what is worrying me, that and the fact that it is changing the Bible."
Then why does changing "snow" not worry you?
Quote: "keep in mind I am researching it to prove it to others, not to reassure myself."
Something to remember AJ... "Do not deceive yourselves. If any one of you thinks he is wise by the standards of this age, he should become a 'fool' so that he may become wise."
Quote: “I've heard that a text without a context is a pretext.”
Well if I’d known that my quote was going to be taken as a pretext, I would have posted the whole comment that you had given in the first place. And if the whole text-context=pretext was true, then no one could quote the Bible without it all being pretext.
Quote: “if you read the entire paragraph you will see something very interesting:”
OK. Attempt to explain #2. Here we go.
Quote: "Each one was translated by a team of scholars whose goal in life is to serve God with their entire being. Saying they are distorting Scripture is spitting in the face of what could be their life's work."
1. The definition of scholars is somebody who has a great deal of knowledge. So does that mean that I cannot point out that someone is wrong, just because they are smart?
2. Unless you have met the “scholars” who wrote the TNIV and have talked with them about their spiritually life, then it’s an assumption to say “whose goal in life is to serve God with their entire being”.
3.Once again, just because someone spends their whole life doing something that’s wrong, doesn’t mean that it suddenly becomes right. To put it simply, WRONG+TIME does not = RIGHT.
And I haven’t “seen something very interesting”, unless you are referring to the fact that I know see you will stick to your “spitting in the face”, even after I tried to explain the problem with it. Have a good day.
Quote: "Then why does changing "snow" not worry you?"
Umm, correct me if I'm wrong, but gender seems a bit more important than snow. And changing "snow" to something else is an act of nessecity. Every language ever made has had gender differentiation. Not every language has had the word for "snow". Changing something with gender into a neutral word is not the same as changing "snow" into a series of words with the same, or an extrodinaraly similar, meaning. Also, translators would use the word for snow if it were available. The people doing the TNIV are doing it because someone may get confused when reading through the Bible at a quick glance. I have not read the TNIV so I'm doing my best not to pass judgement, but it seems to me that if the original text included gender then modern copies should too. That being said, I don't know if the Greek and Hebrew copies have the gender included; if they don't, I will have to say that the TNIV is more accurate, at least in that reguard. I really hope that I'll have internet back soon so I can check on these things.
yeah... you're right Spencer. Gender is more important than snow.
Quote: "I don't know if the Greek and Hebrew copies have the gender included; if they don't, I will have to say that the TNIV is more accurate, at least in that reguard."
I don't know that either... and you have a very good point about needing to check that out to see weather or not the TNIV is being obsured or more accurate on that part. Any ideas on how to find that out? My cousin once sent me a website to look up words... but... I can't think of where it is. I'll have to ask Matthew what it is... hmm.
22 comments:
Ummmmm... in response to the TNIV topic...
Quote: "WHOA! This guy need to wake up!"
First off, he is awake. I saw him a few moments ago, and believe me, he was awake. Secondly, what he "said" was actually being quoted off of a website which was questions and answers about TNIV. Not his actual view on the subject of weather it is right or not to change the Bible.
QUOTE MATTHEW: "OK, here's my 2 cents worth.
What is the most important thing ever?
1 Corinthians 15:3-4
For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,
This fact is woven so deeply in to Scripture that even intentional inaccuracies cannot remove it (NWT case in point). However, you're not going to find this kind of flaw in any Bible you will find for sale from legitimate sources. Each one was translated by a team of scholars whose goal in life is to serve God with their entire being.
Saying they are distorting Scripture is spitting in the face of what could be their life's work.
Back on subject, the minor differences between translations almost don't matter to a new Christian, as they are starting from knowing nothing. Readability is the key here.
As a person matures in Christ, the differences start to matter a little more. But still, I don't think you will find any major doctrinal differences between any legitimate translations.
Certainly, each person can and should choose which translation they read. But I don't think you can go wrong with any Bible you like in the Christian Book Store today.
At the same time, differences are fascinating. You can use http://scripturememorychallenge.org's own verse comparison tool to check this kind of thing out easily."
Quote AJ: "Changing the Bible to make it more politically correct is really, really dangerous."
I think both of you have really good points. But you were asking for my thoughts on the subject, so I'll try to give them to you. I think we in America have plenty of Bibles and plenty of translations. I think that we have readable tranlsations and some which are difficult to comprehend for the normal American (aka KJV). The way God designed Christianity was for a comunity to be involved in the decipleship of the believers. Those further along in their faith would teach the newer ones. They met together in houses to fellowship, they grew together. Back then, they were living in the culture the NT was written to. They understood their culture. As a result, the Scriptures were not confusing to them. Our American calture is different from theirs. (in case you hadn't noticed) BUT if the church continues in the way it was designed, then new believers would be able to understand that "man" refers to both genders.
So, my thought. We have plenty of translations which are easy to read. And if the church does its job right, then making the Bible "gender accurate" or whatever, is not nessessary.
However, my thoughts on the subject do not end there. Bible Translators have come across a delema over and over and over again. When translating the Bible, which is more important, accuracy or understandablity? South America tribes... people who have never seen snow, how do you translate "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow;". What will the people reading it think? Snow. What is snow? They have never seen a gentle blanket of snow on the earth, the purity of it, how white it is, how fresh, how lovely. They have not even seen a picture of it. They have never tasted snow. They have never felt it melt in their hands. So what do you do? Do you translate accuratly and leave them in the dark? Or do you replace "snow" with something that they can grasp?
I honestly cannot imagine God desiring for people to not beable to comprehend His Word. His taking on human form to walk among us is enough to make me believe that. We have the Spirit of God in us, and if we were given the task to translate the Bible, then I would hope and pray that the Holy Spirit who came upon the first authors would also come on us and give us wisdom.
Quote AJ: "I’m not saying different translations are bad, I’m just saying that changing the Bible to make it into what you want it to be (like TNIV) is bad."
Changing the Bible to make it what you, selfishly, want to be is definietly bad. I would most certainly agree with you on that point. Changing the Bible to make it what you want it to be, like Missionaries changing the word "snow" to something that the tribal people can understand, its what they want it to be... because they want others to be able to understand it. I would have to say that I think that's where the heart of the TNIV translators really is. Although I personally am not overjoyed about it (yes, I cringed when I read Drew's comparison of those verses), I think that the heart is what matters.
Quote AJ: "This dude his got his faith DOWN!! Talk about kicking butt and taking names!! Man he’s good."
hahaha. And not only that, he can whip your butt in quizzing too. Of course, that would be easy to accomplish with you. *evil grin*
Ok... one topic down. one more to go.
Why are you writing the paper on dancing anyway?
It looks pretty good. One thing about sin, is even if it is not sin in your own heart to do something, if it causes someone else to stumble then its wrong for you to do it. It is also sin to do something which is not sin to you, but your leaders or parents do not approve of it, because God has told you to respect your authority. The exception to that rule is if God Himself said to do something and they are contridicting Him, like if your leaders/parents told you not to follow God. Then you have permission to dissobey them, but you still have to honor them.
Just thought I'd add that. Although I'm pretty positive that you already know that.
http://video.xanga.com/thedayisalmosthere/174ee211579/video.html
Watch the link. That is what I do. Only... not that good any more. (its a question from one of the championship quizzes on Sunday)
MB,
Thanks for clarifying what's going on. I don't think I have much to add to your excellent post on the topic.
Quote AJ: "This dude his got his faith DOWN!! Talk about kicking butt and taking names!! Man he’s good."
Quote MB: hahaha. And not only that, he can whip your butt in quizzing too. Of course, that would be easy to accomplish with you. *evil grin*
Drew's a great guy. Be aware that he's quoting a web site too. Read the third paragraph:
http://ctlibrary.com/9916
By the way, nice to meet you AJ!
Matthew
The URL is missing a bit. If you leave out the numbers bit it's fine though. And btw...
Quote: " Comment moderation has been enabled. All comments must be approved by the blog author."
Reason? No reason? Fun? Spam? Religiously sensative comments? And where are you getting all this stuff about the TNIV? And what does that stand for? HELP!!! I'M LOST!!
Sorry Spencer. I noticed the URL wasn't working so I was going to delete the comment so I could correct it... but it wouldn't let me delete the comment. Therefore I tried to put it so I could moderate the comments so I could delete them. That also didn't work. Now I'm going to attempt to fix it so it doesn't freaking make me have to moderate the comments before they are posted. :-P Today is so not my day for blogging.
Ok... YAY! I got it disabled. Now you'll have to help me figure out how to delete comments.
Ok, the movie I want y'all to see is the quizzing one, which is on my Xanga page. http://xanga.com/thedayisalmosthere its the first movie.
2ndly, to get Spencer back in on what's going on. All those quotes are coming from the SMC forum, Insights, battle of the Bibles, 2nd page. (and maybe this time the URL will work) http://scripturememorychallenge.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=70&start=15
Matthew, hmmmm... I did not catch that Drew was quoting something. Tahnks for pointing it out.
Oh yeah! I forgot... I'm trying to get Spencer back in on what's going on.
TNIV stands for Today's New International Bible. Apparently TNIV is translating stuff like "son" as "children" and "father" as "parents".
Any more questions, I'll be glad to force AJ to answer them for you. ;-) Or Matthew if he gets a jump at it. (AJ, btw, Matthew is my brother, even though many people think he's my boyfrined and on occasion people have thought that we were married. He's not quite that lucky... he's just my brother)
Quote: “was actually being quoted off of a website which was questions and answers about TNIV. Not his actual view on the subject of weather it is right or not to change the Bible.”
Well it sure sounded like he believed in it! He should be more specific. Thanks for clearing things up M.B.
Quote: “This fact is woven so deeply in to Scripture that even intentional inaccuracies cannot remove it”
Whoa. I was just quoting Bible! If as far as I know Revelation 22:18-19 doesn’t have a footnote saying, “This fact is woven so deeply in to Scripture that even intentional inaccuracies cannot remove it”. So go right ahead and say that the scripture quote is irrelevant if you want. But I believe what it says.
Quote: “Saying they are distorting Scripture is spitting in the face of what could be their life's work.”
Hey Maybe, remember what I said about using people’s words against them? You’re about to see a prime example!
To Matthew: Have you every heard of Charles Darwin? Evolution? Origin of the Species? Because Charles’ “life’s work” was creating his own religion, Evolution. If a man spends his whole life “distorting scripture” then the Bible says a lot more is going to happen to him then a “spitting in the face”. So the only way to defend your last comment is to call the Bible a liar! And if your not going to do that, then just back down and take the Bible at it’s word.
Quote: “Readability is the key here.”
Ha ha. You can’t be serious! Matthew 2:17 says, “And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.” Now what if the Bible was changed to say, “This is my child, whom I love; with it I am well pleased. Do you see the problem? Genesis 2:15 says, “The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it.” What if it was changed to “The Lord God took the person and put it in the Garden. Genesis 1:27 says, “So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. Once again what if it was changed to say, “So God created people in his own image, in the image of God he created them; person and person he created them.
Quote: “Our American culture is different from theirs. (in case you hadn't noticed)”
I’ve read and am doing a study on a book called Wild at Heart. Throughout the book it talks about the world trying to make everything feminist. From school systems to jobs, the world is afraid of real men. They say that boys should be more like girls and men should be more passive. The changing of the Bible in the TNIV is just one of the many bad attempts to change Man into Person.
Quote: “honestly cannot imagine God desiring for people to not be able to comprehend His Word.”
But changing “snow” to another word so that they can understand it is a far cry from changing all man and woman into people or persons so that it fits “American culture”.
Quote: “hahaha. And not only that, he can whip your butt in quizzing too. Of course, that would be easy to accomplish with you. *evil grin*”
That’s Ok. You quizzers can argue about “who knows the most scripture” all you want, (evil grin) I’ll spend my time preparing to send the bad to jail and give the evil the death sentence. And yes, I know you’re evil.
Quote: “Ok... one topic down. one more to go.”
We shall continue than.
Quote: “Why are you writing the paper on dancing anyway?”
There are people who don’t believe what I believe, when I get the chance to convince them I will, If I get the chance to give them my paper I will. But it is also preparation for me to explain what I think about certain topics and YES ms. Quizzer, a chance to get to know the scriptures that support my opinion better. And now that I’ve thought of it and written about it! I believe my next paper will be on NTIV. Yeah! Yet another argument ending, earth changing paper.
Quote: “if it causes someone else to stumble then its wrong for you to do it.”
I do not get into a discussion unprepared. I have already thought of this and knew what I was going to say in such a case, as is my job as Debater. So here it is! Although doing something might cause someone else to stumble, it is not ALWAYS your fault nor can you be held responsible for someone else’s actions. Sometimes people do things carelessly and it causes others to stumble, but sometimes the person hasn’t done anything except be born with good looks, and those type cannot be held responsible for someone else’s thoughts. I would not purposefully cause someone to “stumble” (no pun intended) with my dancing, but I can’t be held responsible if someone takes it the wrong way. (That last sentence might have sounded like a reference to the “good looks” but it wasn’t, I’m not that cocky!)
Quote: “Just thought I'd add that. Although I'm pretty positive that you already know that.”
Thanks for your thoughts anyway. They were good.
Quote: “Drew's a great guy. Be aware that he's quoting a web site too. Read the third paragraph:”
Thanks for clearing that up! Talk about taking credit for someone else’s work.:) You should tell Drew that’s plagiarism!:)
Quote: “By the way, nice to meet you AJ!”
Sorry we had to meet through a partial misunderstanding, insults and a controversial topic. It was nice meeting you too Matt.
Quote: “he's just my brother.”
Spiritually or physically? And I’ve got to tell you a funny story. So I’m sitting here writing on the Microsoft Word about TNIV and my dad walks in, he asks if I’m writing a thesis. I say no, I’m discussing Bible translations with Mary Beth. He asks who Mary Beth is and I try to explain how she knows the Hoovers and she’s a friend of Spencer’s. So he says, “Are Spencer and her an issue?” and I’m like so stunned that all I can manage to say is, “no”. But when it finally settled in I cracked up laughing! Thought you’d enjoy that, tell Lizz I said, “Keep it real”. I hope Matthew doesn’t jump to too many conclusions about me. And have a great day!
Quote: "I hope Matthew doesn’t jump to too many conclusions about me."
He can't. He's already heard too much about how awesome you are, and besides. You're one of my friends. Apparently basically all my friends are really cool.
And to answer your question, Matthew was born 2 years before I was, and shock of all shock, by the exact same people as I was!
And now I must think about what you have said. In my opinion, I agree with you about "snow" and changing "man" to "person" being different. All living creation knows the difference between male and female. And I guess I have some research to do...
Here's something you probably will notice about me. I hate putting people down or their work. (although with you and a few other people I torment, nothing is taken seriously and any insults are not given seriously) I will stick up for the underdog. Especially if I don't know very much about what is going on. If I know enough I may form an opinion. On this particular topic, I am not pleased with the TNIV. (times the "not pleased" by a high number) However, I also don't know all the facts.
So I guess I'll try to do some research since its important to you, and in the meantime... I'll let Matthew know you responded to what he said.
Quote AJ: "Ha ha. You can’t be serious! Matthew 2:17 says, “And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.” Now what if the Bible was changed to say, “This is my child, whom I love; with it I am well pleased. Do you see the problem?"
Matthew 3:17 "And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."
Guess what version that is.
I'm going to guess that you said NIV. In which case, you're correct. But if you wanted to shock me and guess TNIV, I'd have to say that you are also correct. This is copied word for word out of the TNIV. And I compared it to NIV. They are the same. Exactly.
Quote AJ: "Genesis 2:15 says, “The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it.” What if it was changed to “The Lord God took the person and put it in the Garden."
Genesis 2:15 "The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it."
Again. I copied this out of the TNIV Bible. Quoted the exact same way as in NIV.
Quote: "Genesis 1:27 says, “So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. Once again what if it was changed to say, “So God created people in his own image, in the image of God he created them; person and person he created them."
Genesis 1:27 "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them." NIV
"So God created human beings in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them." TNIV
Finally, one which is different. The passage truly is talking about human beings when it says "man". In the other passages "man" was obviously being referred to as "man". God made man and put him in the garden to work. He made woman as a helper. To someone who is not used to the Christian lingo... what are they going to think when they read that last passage?
"Okay... God made man in His image... male and female. How do you get a man who is female? I guess God made a mistake... which means that some men are really women inside, and some women are really men inside. So changing genders is fine!"
I think you are thinking that the TNIV is changing everything to make it so the genders are not mentioned. The passage we read fron Hebrews was scary "children" and "parents" SHEESH WHAT ARE THEY THINKING????? But I just looked it up in the TNIV and the website Drew was quoting had it wrong!
"Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children. For what children are not disciplined by their father?"
Yes, "son" and "children" are different. But wouldn't they all be disciplined by the parent who adminster's discipline? I don't know about your family... but in my family Dad didn't just discipline the boys. He disciplined all the kids.
AJ, what are we discussing? Weather or not TNIV is in the wrong? Or if it is wrong to make the genders equal?
Again, the "snow" thing. From what little I've seen out of the actual TNIV, it is applying the same logic, same motive, same theory. If you are going to say that its wrong to translate so that people who are reading can understand it, then why are you reading the Bible in English? Every single translation is changed. KJV had stuff added to it and it was worded in a way that the people of that day could understand. TNIV is being translated, quite closely to the NIV, only when its talking about both sexes it uses "people" or "children" or some other term which is easy to grasp.
Quote: "The changing of the Bible in the TNIV is just one of the many bad attempts to change Man into Person."
Is it? As you are researching, I'd suggest that you use the TNIV and compare it to whatever version you want. And to save you some trouble and money... there is a website online which has tons of different versions of the Bible. the link is http://biblegateway.com
On the left their is a colum thingy, the 2nd one down (right under "Home") is "Pasage Lookup"
In the middle of the screen there are a few boxes. The first one, under "Enter Passage(s)" you can enter a passage (or click the link benieth it "lookup multiple passages" and look up a couple passages) then there is a bar under "select version(s)" here you click a bar and pick a version you want to use. You can have up to 5 versions. Once you're done you can hit "Lookup Passage"
you can compare the passages side by side if you like, or read one and scrool down to see the other.
I also use Biblegateway to look up words, and I use the main screen for that and enter what I'm thinking of, such as "man" which has 2723 Results in NIV.
Quote: "tell Lizz I said, “Keep it real”. "
She asked if you thought she was being fake. (rather jokingly I might add... I think anyway)
Quote: "I’ll spend my time preparing to send the bad to jail and give the evil the death sentence. And yes, I know you’re evil."
Awwwww, come on AJ. Just because I have better looks, am smarter, more creative, and also smell better, doesn't mean you have to hold such a grudge. I don't think that you can really thorw someone to jail for those standards.
Hmmm... a thought, some people can't help that they're good looking (like me ;-) hehe) but some... er... a whole lot actually, show it off, and that causes others to stumble. Of course, some people are going to sin no matter what other people do. We do have some responsibilty, and like I said, if the people in authority over us say "no", even if we thank God for it, we must show respect and submit to them because "there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities which exist have been established by God to do us good." (Romans something I believe)
ok.. Dad said hi to Spencer and asked if AJ was "there". I answered "no" because, to my knowledge, neither of you are on the internet right now. (the time I am posting this, not the time you are reading it, in which case you obviously are on the internet and in which case my dad says "hi")
I was actually commenting on a guy named Griffin's Xanga. He thought he was monopolizing my Xanga and I said that I had a guy yesterday leave 4 pgs worth of comments on my blogspot. Compared to his 1 page worth of comments... he has a way to go. ;-)
Today must not be my day. To start it off... AJ brought it to my attention (and Spencers) that his dad asked if we were an "issue" why you'd be having issues with us AJ, I don't know. But Spencer has promised me that he will pay for your tharipist bills if you need counseling because of my tramatizing you.
After that I thought I was doing fine. Then I went to youthgroup and told a girlfriend of mine I wanted to introduce her to a friend (who I was stunned to see there because even though he has moved to Toccoa I see him once a month at quiz meets), and I pointed him out to her, she asked in the sweetest way possible, "is he a nice boy?" (aka, do you like him?) I was rather taken aback and said, "ummm... no. He's a friend from quizzing, he got first place at Internationals last year and I went to internationals twice with him" and then I was able to introduce them.
And then I turn around and I see Flirt Jonathan. (yeah, ok. So I'm harsh on people who flirt with people they bearly know, especially if that person is me. Generally they are classified as "stupid flirts" and are to be avoidied)
Then I am FINALLY safe and I come home and a friend from quizzing said on my xanga, "I think somewhere in there it was implied that John is a stud, but even if it wasn't, he is, so I'll be sure to tell him so...again" And all I did was insult him... the guy who said that... Griffin... yeah.
Ok. Today has been really weird. And I'm only saying all that because... well... its laughable and really weird. Really. Normally my life isn't so weird. Especially not in that aspect.
Um, all I can say is "wow."
MB, you're doing fine defending me ;)
AJ,
I'm not sure if I'm taking this a little too seriously, but in discussion I try to understand what the other guy is really saying before I respond.
If you have other views, I'll stay out of this one.
In response to your post:
Quote me: “Saying they are distorting Scripture is spitting in the face of what could be their life's work.”
Quote AJ: To Matthew: Have you every heard of Charles Darwin? Evolution? Origin of the Species? Because Charles’ “life’s work” was creating his own religion, Evolution. If a man spends his whole life “distorting scripture” then the Bible says a lot more is going to happen to him then a “spitting in the face”. So the only way to defend your last comment is to call the Bible a liar! And if your not going to do that, then just back down and take the Bible at it’s word.
I've heard that a text without a context is a pretext.
If you look at just that one sentence from my post it doesn't make any sense. However, if you read the entire paragraph you will see something very interesting:
Each one was translated by a team of scholars whose goal in life is to serve God with their entire being.
Saying they are distorting Scripture is spitting in the face of what could be their life's work.
Quote: “To someone who is not used to the Christian lingo... what are they going to think when they read that last passage?”
Well if they really want to understand the Bible they will ask someone who knows what it means. And if they go off like your example “and some women are really men inside. So changing genders is fine!" then they obviously don’t want to be Christians enough to understand it.
Quote: “I don't know about your family... but in my family Dad didn't just discipline the boys. He disciplined all the kids.”
But the thing is that the Bible didn’t do a study on our “family” behaviors and then write it accordingly. It was written the way it was written, and once again I will say that changing the Bible to fit present actions is wrong.
Quote: “AJ, what are we discussing? Whether or not TNIV is in the wrong?
I think that’s wrong. If you had to say whether it was Right of Wrong which would you choose?
Quote: “Or if it is wrong to make the genders equal?”
I think that’s wrong. If you had to say whether it was Right of Wrong which would you choose?
So my answer’s both.
Quote: “only when its talking about both sexes it uses "people" or "children" or some other term which is easy to grasp.”
I’ve already explained that the changing of the “sexes” in the Bible is what is worrying me, that and the fact that it is changing the Bible.
Quote: “which is easy to grasp”
“The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Easier does not equal better.
Quote: “As you are researching, I'd suggest that you use the TNIV and compare it to whatever version you want.”
Thank you for the website, but keep in mind I am researching it to prove it to others, not to reassure myself.
Quote: "Well if they really want to understand the Bible they will ask someone who knows what it means. And if they go off like your example “and some women are really men inside. So changing genders is fine!" then they obviously don’t want to be Christians enough to understand it."
Very good point. I was exaggerating on that. However, if someone wished to argue that changing their gender was alright, then they could use that.
Quote: "It was written the way it was written, and once again I will say that changing the Bible to fit present actions is wrong."
You are grouping something together... and I am dividing them. Since you asked my opinion on the subject, I shall give it to you.
On second thought... I think I'll think about it some more. I cannot put words to what I really think right now.
Quote: "I’ve already explained that the changing of the “sexes” in the Bible is what is worrying me, that and the fact that it is changing the Bible."
Then why does changing "snow" not worry you?
Quote: "keep in mind I am researching it to prove it to others, not to reassure myself."
Something to remember AJ... "Do not deceive yourselves. If any one of you thinks he is wise by the standards of this age, he should become a 'fool' so that he may become wise."
Quote: “I've heard that a text without a context is a pretext.”
Well if I’d known that my quote was going to be taken as a pretext, I would have posted the whole comment that you had given in the first place. And if the whole text-context=pretext was true, then no one could quote the Bible without it all being pretext.
Quote: “if you read the entire paragraph you will see something very interesting:”
OK. Attempt to explain #2. Here we go.
Quote: "Each one was translated by a team of scholars whose goal in life is to serve God with their entire being.
Saying they are distorting Scripture is spitting in the face of what could be their life's work."
1. The definition of scholars is somebody who has a great deal of knowledge. So does that mean that I cannot point out that someone is wrong, just because they are smart?
2. Unless you have met the “scholars” who wrote the TNIV and have talked with them about their spiritually life, then it’s an assumption to say “whose goal in life is to serve God with their entire being”.
3.Once again, just because someone spends their whole life doing something that’s wrong, doesn’t mean that it suddenly becomes right. To put it simply, WRONG+TIME does not = RIGHT.
And I haven’t “seen something very interesting”, unless you are referring to the fact that I know see you will stick to your “spitting in the face”, even after I tried to explain the problem with it. Have a good day.
Quote: "Then why does changing "snow" not worry you?"
Umm, correct me if I'm wrong, but gender seems a bit more important than snow. And changing "snow" to something else is an act of nessecity. Every language ever made has had gender differentiation. Not every language has had the word for "snow". Changing something with gender into a neutral word is not the same as changing "snow" into a series of words with the same, or an extrodinaraly similar, meaning. Also, translators would use the word for snow if it were available. The people doing the TNIV are doing it because someone may get confused when reading through the Bible at a quick glance. I have not read the TNIV so I'm doing my best not to pass judgement, but it seems to me that if the original text included gender then modern copies should too. That being said, I don't know if the Greek and Hebrew copies have the gender included; if they don't, I will have to say that the TNIV is more accurate, at least in that reguard. I really hope that I'll have internet back soon so I can check on these things.
yeah... you're right Spencer. Gender is more important than snow.
Quote: "I don't know if the Greek and Hebrew copies have the gender included; if they don't, I will have to say that the TNIV is more accurate, at least in that reguard."
I don't know that either... and you have a very good point about needing to check that out to see weather or not the TNIV is being obsured or more accurate on that part. Any ideas on how to find that out? My cousin once sent me a website to look up words... but... I can't think of where it is. I'll have to ask Matthew what it is... hmm.
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